All Access Podcast #45 Jonathan Vandenfontyne
===
Gene Fetty: [00:00:00] All right. Hey, what's up everybody? Gene Fetty back at you with another episode of the All Access Podcast Now from Dent Repair. Now, today, uh, we've got a special old friend, uh, that, that I can't believe I haven't put an episode together yet with this guy. Uh, but we have Mr. Jonathan Vandenfontyne joining us.
I'm assuming you're home live from Belgium. Uh, Jonathan, welcome to the show and thanks so much for, for making time and staying up late. I think it's probably 11 o'clock at night over there for you. Almost thank you for the invite, gene. Yes. And you're the first American actually pronouncing my name, correct.
It's taken me years of practice. Oh, perfect. Well, Jonathan, seriously, thank you for, for coming on the show and, uh, I wanted to try to get this together to help you promote your [00:01:00] upcoming class. Uh, but you've just about filled it up yourself, so I guess, I guess you don't need me, but, you know, in our messages you were like, well let, we can still do a podcast, uh, which I think is, is fantastic.
Um, I want to get a little bit of your backstory because everybody, you know knows that, well, maybe not everybody, all of us old school guys know that, that you were, uh, pretty pivotal or, or I important in helping Kiko or helping large loophole repair come to. Uh, fruition. Uh, and you have have grown now everybody knows you for sure as the JVF tools guy, right?
With retention. Uh, so I wanna get a little bit of your story. So how about, how about a quick background on how did you end up in this goofy trade we call paintless dent repair? Um, actually, um, it was gradually [00:02:00] and, uh, luckily for, for, for me, maybe, or us here, uh, because the, the European or Belgian body repair stuff is different than what happens in the us.
I am, uh, actually because my father wanted me to go to work really early, uh, got into collision and repair in, uh. In, uh, when I was 16 years old, actually. Part-time school, part-time, um, collision work. Oh, wow. And then I got into collision when I was 16, and that was, uh, beginning nineties, 93, 94. Okay. And then, and then, uh, I started doing all kinds of stuff with a guy named, uh, Hank for Cummin actually in, uh, in a city called Melan, close to where I lived.
And, uh, the guy was specialized in big smashes, uh, select work, uh, hydraulic works. So I learned, uh, the big stuff from that guy, the big moves. And, uh, so, so big heavy collision hits, big, heavy collision hits. We even, uh, sometimes cut [00:03:00] cars in half on the molds for the sette, welded it all together and painted the whole car and put it back together.
So the whole nine yards of collision up to a few years painting as well. Uh, but um, then I changed. I also did, uh. Because of, there was better money in that at that time doing, um, uh, like AAA work, uh, electronics on cars, mechanics on cars like, uh, in Brussels, fixing cars. Okay. Had breakdowns on the road and kept doing collision as a second job.
Um, and then, um, I saw a really old guy, and that was more than 20 years ago, uh, doing PDR work, but with his own made tools. He was in the old, uh, per Jo factory that he worked in, uh, Belgium, and developed his own PDR tools like 35, 40 years ago. And he had these type of rods that he shaped himself [00:04:00] and some blending hammers and, uh.
All these basic simple rods just to reach the stuff to, to push out and to blend out. And there was this hail car coming through and um, someone said to me, there is this guy over there, he fixes that without painting and I cannot stand that. There is something in my trade that I don't understand or not can do.
So I called him first, but he did a lot of work on the side. And he said, uh, I don't know what you mean. I don't, I don't. I said, look, I'm this guy. I'm from there. I just wanna see you work. I want to pay you to be able to look at you while you're working. And he said, look, most young guys these days don't wanna work anymore.
So if you are ready to pay me to just watch, I'm willing to show you some stuff. So, well that's pretty cool. So I went over to him and he was the first guy showing me how to push out dense, like, like, uh, a hundred percent to get it out in PDR quality. [00:05:00] So I started doing that, buying some stuff. Uh.
Beginning years of, uh, we have a WPT brand here. So I bought a set from them in Holland. And then, um, later on actually because of beginning of YouTube and then um, ing.com and all of the Facebook beginning years, uh, got into more tools, American tools, German tools, and, uh, started just using that. And because I worked with collision guys, uh, and in collision shops as an independent worker, I sold my hours to them to do all, all kinds of work.
Uh, I, I, I had all the time in the world to, to, to, um, uh, train myself in the trade. So no matter what the size of the dent was. I was able to try whatever I I wanted, because if it didn't work out, they were gonna paint it anyway. So, uh, it, it's a great place to be to, to just try and do whatever you want to do and see would this work?
[00:06:00] What is, what is my luck here? Can I stretch it that way? Can I go this far temperature-wise, heating up, shrinking, you name it. Uh, you could just try anything you wanted big dent wise to see what would work in PDR. So that's how I roll into it. And now I'm doing PDR since, yeah, the beginning two thousands.
That's awesome. I bet you screwed up a lot of cars when that trying stuff, right? Of of course, of course. For sure. Doing that with that stuff. So that's, that's one of the things that I always try to tell my students or, or new guys just looking for advice. Uh, it's a quote that I heard that's one of my favorite things, and it's the master has failed more times than the apprentice has tried.
And, and that's exactly it. Your, your, your body shop, you're, you get to try it. Uh, my body shop that I got to try was car lots. I would go out and I could fix some door dings, but I learned to do the big stuff when I'd have all the work done. [00:07:00] And it was early and I'm like, wow, I'll go back and work on that caved in bedside and see if I can figure it out.
And I didn't get paid on a lot of jobs, but I learned on every single one. That's, that's, that's a, a cool testament to, to what it takes to, to become a, a serious technician. So early two thousands, you start to transition from. Body repair into PDR. Uh, let's take a little fast forward step because I know it wasn't the early two thousands because it wasn't around yet.
How or what, how did you end up getting into like, let's call it GPR or, or large damage glue pull repair. I understand like you had that background. What did you see? Gimme your, what's the story on how did Jonathan become one of the key people in, in helping to bring collision glue pulling to the world?
Well, I, um, I [00:08:00] worked with a guy that did, um. Um, mobile homes, those, uh, you know, the, the movable mobile homes, I don't know how you call it there. Yeah. Trailer, mobile. We call 'em mobile homes here too. Yeah. So, and, um, he asked me to repair some of those bigger things, but he didn't want to repaint them because the special paint they had on it and the striping and everything else.
And he didn't want to take him apart because, uh, the building of the, of the furniture and the everything else, and because of all the electricity and all that kind of stuff, he did not want to temper just on the outside. So I'm looking for some stuff and I, the first thing I got into on a show was that very first worth kit Okay.
With the sky hammer with those tabs, the glue in there and, and that kind of stuff. And then, um, I bought one of those kits in, in, in a little case. I, I think most. Old school, PDR guys in America have that case somewhere. I think I still have one in the basement and I definitely sell [00:09:00] in my box. Exactly. Yep.
So, but that, that was, uh, I think, uh, 2005 or six that I bought that first kit from work, because it was, yeah, 2004 even oh five. 'cause that was working with that guy then. And, um, but of course they, these worth sales guys, they don't, they know zero about what they are selling. So you've got the kit and I, I, I knew a few guys, I said, don't buy it, Jonathan Crap doesn't work.
The, the glue doesn't stick and the this and the that and the blah blah, blah, you know, the whole nine yards. Oh yeah. So I tried, tried. 'cause I wouldn't take no for an answer. I said, if the Germans designed this, it has to work. Right. They, they, they don't fool around. They, they build stuff that works. So, uh, I started playing with temperatures, with cleaners, with polishing and, and I found a way to make that loop kit work like a, like a charm.
I could do amazing stuff, [00:10:00] only glue pulling, staying on the outside because I had no other option on those special mobile homes. I had no other choice than to perfect this glue pulling stuff. But there was stuff missing. And, uh, my wife at that time, Katya, she worked for United Airlines so I could fly standby to wherever I wanted.
50 bucks or the, or the, oh, nice. I was just the tax. And I saw Mike Toledo at that time on YouTube coming up like, Hey, M-T-E-M-T-E guys come along and this, and blah, blah, blah. Actually, Mike Toledo presented MTE to Europe over his YouTube channel. Oh, cool. And I said like, well, let's, let's just fly there 50 bucks to, uh, over there.
I took Kaia around to Florida and I visited that show. It was 2012 or 13. And, um, I saw there this company, uh, a lot of companies, for me it was like, uh, arriving at Disney World. Like that doesn't exist in Europe. Only VR tools and stuff. So [00:11:00] my, my suitcase was filled up going back, but the most important thing in, in my case was I saw this company there, uh, Kiko and, uh, Tim and Chris were there, uh, and Tim Fisher at the time.
And then, yeah, I remember Tim, right. And, uh, they had a bunch of hail stuff and the little robo and, and, and that kind of stuff. But there was this engineer there that, that designed a long tab, a very flexible centipede. And I said, what the hell is this? And he said, yeah, it's a, it's a tab. You can cut it up.
And, uh, it's always been Chris's dream to develop a tab that you can cut up to whatever size you, size you want, and then use it exact on that type of sort of d Yep. He probably will do it in the future to, to make something that you can cut to what you need. But I said, well, uh, I wanna buy a fuel, let's try it.
But I, I saw instantly, like I asked him at that time on Tim, where [00:12:00] are your tools here to use this big tab? And he said, like, uh, a robo. And I went, wow. I went like a robo, really. I bought a, I bought a robo to do the hail stuff, but of course, in my mind. This big of a, of a, of a tab and then the robo with the tab in the dent.
Yeah. That sound crazy to me. So, but even at, even at a stand, the the, the wheels were turning, like, if I make an adapter and I make a, a lifter and I make a bridge that can hold this things, it's, it's, that's might be amazing if, if I can make it stick to that fourth. Right. So I got home, started building some prototypes, and all of a sudden, instead of pushing a thousand times on a big dent and going all the time back in, back in, back in, out, in, out, in, out, fatiguing the metal, now I could use a big tab, put a clamp on it, use a hydraulic pull, [00:13:00] use a bridge and a lifter, and bring that thing out.
Like 80% in like a quarter of an hour. Yes. And I went like, oh, this is, this is amazing. Wow, wow, wow. And then my work. Boom. Boom. Slide hammer with it. The, the, the, it was even so bad that I put some, some, um, videos on that. I got hate mail. You are a liar. That is impossible. The, I got hate mail for showing people hot glue is pulling out this dent.
I believe it. That was a little bit after, because I saw this and I went like, of course I destroyed some tabs with the hydraulics. Sure. And I called Kiko and I said, look, um, are you coming to in Germany? They said, yeah. I said, well, can you bring 30 of those tabs? And then, uh, Fisher said to me, yeah, I'll bring 'em, I'll wrap 'em up if you anything else you want.
Yeah. Your experimental glues, whatever you have different glues. A package of everything. 'cause I want to try [00:14:00] 'em all to see how they behave in our temperatures over here. Right. So they came to, uh, to Europe and um, Chris must have told Tim, I don't know that story, but I think he said, if that guy is picking up these 30 centipedes, you send 'em to me.
I want to see him. I want to know why he wants these centipedes. Right? So Chris said, uh, you need to be there for those sentes. So I went to, Chris said, yeah. He said, first, uh, you did a good deal here 'cause I brought 'em in and I paid a tax on it and blah, blah, blah. I said, yeah, okay. But he was happy, of course, to, but he wanted to know, why do you want 'em?
'cause we are thinking on Stoppings to sell these 'cause. I said, yeah, but uh, I see what the problem is. He said, yeah, what is the problem? I said, you have these type of tabs and you have these type of tools you need That is, that is PDR here and there is collision, but in the middle there is this road, open road of [00:15:00] group repair.
We can, we can, you can come from here to here and from there to here, but you need tools. You have no tools. And, uh, I said, I'm doing this. And I showed him before and after with this tab. He said, I, I don't believe that, that is impossible. And then I showed him some video and he went like, Hmm hmm. And we have a conversation.
Yes. So he came, uh, to Brussels. The day a the, after the show I was, I, I came to Brussels 'cause 10 minutes from my house at that time. And the rest is history. That's awesome. That's awesome. So, so speaking of those in the videos, I, I've got a video that was. You, it's one of your videos that was like a light bulb moment for me as a PDR guy.
And I had, you know, pushed smashes, like you said, you know, pushing a thousand times. And I saw this video, let me see, we've got it pulled up here somewhere. This is it. And we're gonna let this [00:16:00] play. So this is one of those videos and you likely, uh, lemme move this outta here. Let's close this. Uh, you likely got hate mail from this thing.
So this is, I don't know if we have sound. No, no sound. So we can narrate over this. So this video showed up on my Facebook feed, and if you miss the title in the beginning, it's like horse, you know, kicks or hip check. I say the horse hip checked the, the quarter panel on this van. And this is before these vans were real revel, relevant here.
And I'm like, man, this thing was pushed in. And here in a second, you're gonna watch, uh, what I imagine has to be a, a pretty early ice centipede. Uh, you're gonna set it up and you walk this thing out, like in a, literally, in a matter of minutes. Uh, do you remember this repair? Oh, yes, [00:17:00] I remember it. Yeah. Uh, like you said, the horse side kicked it and, uh, the same thing on the inside.
Double metal. Right. Uh, and the guy, the only option that he had was to grind it all off and start spot loading. Right. Or put a new panel on it. So this is a select hydraulic system like you can see, but it had no tower, so I had to put a tube in there to be able to be high enough. Oh, okay. Yep. This was, this was, like you said, one of the first ice centipedes that are glued just above the body line.
And that thing that came out like, oh. It, it's, I had to stop 'cause I would over pull it. Yes. With hot glue. The bar, the body shop themselves could not believe that I fixed that in three, four hours. And the top side that did not paint and the bottom because the paint was, uh, cracked. Yeah. But only Grupo fixed that whole thing.
And that was, [00:18:00] we, we checked it earlier, what'd you say? Eight years ago? Basically? Eight? Yeah. This is, this is from, so this would be 17, 20 17. Got it. Yeah. Um, man, so I saw this and this would, I, we got our shop in early 18. So, you know, I was getting ready to move into a shop and, uh, I saw this and this sold me, I bought my first K bar and some Centipede tabs, and I bought the foot that goes into the K bar so I could make a, I have a leverage tool and a, and a beam.
Um. This also was so impressive that I start talking to my body shops about, I'm like, man, you guys gotta see what this glue pull stuff is doing. You know, my friend Jonathan is, is making these pulls and I sh I couldn't tell you how many times I've shared this video, you know, pulled it up on my phone and I'm like, watch this.
And, uh, that's unbelievable. He looked a lot [00:19:00] younger in that picture. Yeah. I do. 18 years and a beer. Makes a lot of difference. It sure does. It sure does. Um, but that video, I, I'm telling you, I can't tell you, I, I think every body shop that I was going into and servicing back in that, you know, 17, 18, 19 era, uh, they saw that video that sold me on big glue pull repair that sold, I'm certain a lot of body shops on big glue pull repair.
Crazy. Uh, and really like that video helped lead me down the path to my time at Kiko. Right. Which overlapped some of your time at Kiko. So, so you, you get to meet Chris, you're buying some of these tabs, you're starting to do these pools and, and you start designing or helping to design some of the tools and the tabs that, that we still use today.
Right. If I go down and look at my Kiko rack on the wall, right. Those are the same tools that, that were you were using back in the day. Yeah. Correct. [00:20:00] Uh, how fun was that to get to play around and, and design tools and, and Well, it was, uh, and still is an exciting time to design tools because, um, to my field, um, when I came into collision, I saw grandfather tools standing on little cards, dollies, slappers, you name it on those cards.
And the newest thing was, was, was spotters. Eh spot. Welding machines. Spot welder. Yep, that's it. And for the collision, actually, almost nothing new came out for years or it was connected to the same old school stuff. But now because of this global technology, there was this amazing stuff to do. And because of my.
Capability on testing, all kinds of stuff. I worked really close with Chris and for, for that same matter, Jerry, uh, as well, that was designer over there, uh, engineer also bj. Um, [00:21:00] it was, it was amazing because, uh, our ideas build a prototype if it was for a tool, but then tabs, we had ideas bounced off each other and then just start trying stuff and see what would work and what did not work.
'cause of course, uh, gene, uh, people sometimes think that, um, look at the tool set that's designed, that tool after tool after tool was just designed and hang on the cart and let's, hey, here is our tool set. That's how it works. So much different than that. Exactly. And you need to design a, you need to make a lot of stuff.
I still have a bunch of prototypes laying around. And my personal, um, goal is if you make a tool, a new tool for something specific, uh, you need to use your prototype and it needs to become your go-to tool for that type of repair. If it doesn't and you grab the old tool, again, don't even bother bringing it out.
But if [00:22:00] your new tool, your new prototype is so much better, um, than the stuff that exists for it, well then please bother and make it because, uh, while you're working with it, you perfect a tool to what you think is, is a great tool or, or great for that type of repair, right? 'cause we know it need a bunch of tools.
'cause there is not no such thing as a one tool does it all. It doesn't exist. No, no. For specific problems. You can design specific tools and, uh, for me, it needs to become my go-to tool or I don't even bother anymore. Well, I remember you telling me the story. This was before my Kiko time. Uh, it was when the seven millimeter dead center crease tab came out, uh, for pulling, you know, pulling body lines, pulling tight creases.
Do I remember the story right, that you were working on somebody's Cadillac, correct. In Oklahoma City knew had a problem and [00:23:00] they took a bigger tab and went to like a table saw or a, a story there, something to cut it down. Is that right? I was there with, um, with Keith. Keith was also a rep for some time.
Manor Keith. Keith, man, a great guy. Funny guy to work with. Uh, but a hail technician needs to go for speed and, and also nervous. But a good, good guy, he was there too and Jerry was there and we needed the car to do some, 'cause we were at that time making movies for the website. Kenny was there doing great e-commerce stuff, but he wanted more videos.
Videos, videos. Sure. So we were looking for a repair to shoot some stuff on. And Jerry said, well, my wife ran into the, the waste bin. And the waste bin turned between the wall and the car and left a line imprint through my Cadillac in the back. So it began on the dog leg turned [00:24:00] through the wheel Well, yeah.
Into the quarter panel. Bought an expensive car and, um, we all said, let's, let's do glue pulling on it. But creases and glue pulling was not done yet at that time. Glue pulling of course, and then knocking down, knocking down, pulling, knocking, pulling, knocking, pulling, knocking like a thousand times to hopefully get the thing far enough out that you, or you start glue pulling and you're pushed with a tool to finish up a crease.
And, um, I was pulling and pulling and nothing happened. And all of a sudden Keith grabs a drill and wants to drill the Cadillac. Had enough of this. I'm drilling it and building it. And I said, you stay away from here with your drill. This is Jerry's car, and it does. And I said, you have a, you have a grinder here.
He said, yeah, I have a grinder. I said, well, because if, if you see the philosophy we have, and that is. The, the [00:25:00] tab needs to be smaller and in the dent to make the metal move and not glue the crowns and the deep spot together. And that's exactly what happens with the tab. That's too big. Yeah. You glue it over, the glue runs in everything and then locks the whole thing in.
You pull it up, all you do is pull up a high volcano and the cray is still there. Yep. Said I want to try something. So he gives me, he gives me a, a grinder and, uh, we had at that time in the, in the tool set all Keith Constantino steps. Okay. So I grind it down to seven millimeters, six or seven millimeter.
One of those tabs from Keith. That was 12 millimeter or so. Yep. I put glue on it, glued in the crease to carbo and went like, boom.
I, I, I could not believe what I saw. I said, what is this? [00:26:00] And Jerry came and looked at it and everybody like, like looked at it. Chris looked at it, I said, wait guys, I wanna see what happens further. So glued it again, and the whole crease inside out, just walked it out. Not a coincidence anymore. But otherwise, I would've never not being in that testing situation, would've never, ever tried to think like, Hey, let's make a really thin tab, but really long, it's gonna be really strong for creases.
That would've been absurd in the logical thinking because probably wouldn't be strong enough to, to pull that inside out. Unbelievable. So that's, listen, that, that's when those crease tabs started, those crease tabs sold a lot of glue pool systems because you know, you get a, you get somebody in front of you and you glue this little seven millimeter wide tab.
Onto a panel and then, you know, we'd set the crease killer, the double robo up, and we'd get these big muscle heads and they're like, and they can't get it to [00:27:00] go. And you pull it off and it's got a body line. Unbelievable. That, uh, short, after we came out with the crease killer, double robo the feet and then the longer centipede crease tab.
Yeah. You literally rip body lines into metal. Yeah. It is unbelievable. You rip off paint of, of paint that you would never rip off with a tap in another situation because you're pulling so hard. You, you, it's unbelievable. Yeah. We, we had a door. I don't think you were there. It was, it was sema, right? Sort of when you were exiting.
And I was in, and we had a Ford door. And on that door we demoed the, the crease killer at the end. Remember the old Ford Flexes? They had the, it was a reverse body line. Down the door. They had a few, oh no, any four flexes. But anyway, anyways, the, the F-150 door looked like a, a different door when we were done because it had so many separate body lines pulled into it.
It was, it was [00:28:00] unbelievable. Unbelievable. It even helps a lot on, um, if you get some flimsy or oil counting metal, uh, put that tab on a body line. Boom. Lift it like a millimeter. Yep. He's gonna boom, put tension on that panel again and nobody notices anything. But you have strength again in the panel. I just gave a guy that tip today was working on a roof with a stretch dent from an antenna and I'm like, Hey, get the seven millimeter tap.
Put it on the line, pull it up. I said, you can even hide some of that stretch. And he was like, that's my next move. So. Good stuff that, that sounds like, I mean, I really loved my time at Kiko. That sounds like you had even more fun. Than me at Kiko, because you got to, you got to play and test and design.
Let's fast forward a little bit because we could probably talk for hours, uh, on this whole story. Now, your JVF, right? Your JVF [00:29:00] tools, what, I guess what led you to, to bring your own tools out and, and what, what, what do you, what all do you have to offer there? So let's get your story and then we can pull your website up and look at some of this stuff.
Yeah. Um, well, I still do some stuff with Kiko and, uh, with other people too, but I've always been JVFI was always a freelancer. I was never, uh, an employee of Kiko. Okay. So it became more clear when I started doing the own brand, and actually I kept the name, they glued on me at Kiko. I think it was. Tim Fisher starting to do that when I, uh, made the first, uh, GVF 360 tip.
Yeah, it was the GVF tip or the GVF hammer or the, so the GVF people already know Jonathan Van team, but for sure, for Americans you not, and Van is very difficult to pronounce. So it became JVF and I kept JVF and it became JVF tools, but I had some, [00:30:00] uh, ideas on, uh, on lateral tension and I noticed that a friend, good friend of mine, Barry Mcny also, and um, there were some in those years.
If you're a body or collision guy, lateral tension is not new. 'cause you've been doing lateral tension for years. With, with hydraulics, with clamps, with everything. If we did doors that we, that were turned inside out against the pole or whatever, two clamps on the edges of the doors, you pull and come back, move right out, you fix the door.
But the new thing was, um, glue, lateral tension, really strong, no damage. So, um, and I was, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna say it as this, I was not a fan of all those rods pushing out taps. I was not really a fan of it because they were blocking the repair, in my [00:31:00] opinion. So bunch of people went that direction with the rods because they liked the idea and they loved doing that.
It's okay. And it was a, a simple design. Really. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, but I did not like it. I'm, I'm honest I didn't like that idea. The, the, yeah. So, um, what I wanted to do, and also Barry's idea as well, is we came together and we had actually practically a hundred percent the same idea. Uh, and that's why I started working with him.
He was also, is also a tool designer Barry. He has also out of the box ideas, and I like people thinking out of the box. Uh, and we came up with this idea, but not only Barry and me, Jerry Leopold, who is, uh, is uh, an engineer that I worked with at Kiko years ago, and he's also outside. He works in another company.
Okay. Our, we put our minds together and [00:32:00] we did this and, uh, the retention, the retention system. Exactly. So, uh, I have some early prototypes that I worked with. Uh, that are fixed tools and, um, not as strong as this one is. But Gene, honestly, the pulling that I was doing with it, not only for PDR but also for collision guys, and I put my gauge on it and the testing of the strength of the tool and everything else, the numbers were gigantic.
So I did not want risk, a smaller extrusion or a lighter tool because of the power of this tool. It's amazing what you can repair. If you talk bedsides, roofs, strong doors, aluminum doors, uh, you name it. So we started experimenting with it and this is actually the, the production tool is the, the fifth [00:33:00] one that we made.
Okay. Af after all the testing, 'cause like I said before, the same was for this. Then the different extrusions that you can interchange is, um, allowing technicians with one tool to make a smaller one and a bigger one. And we even have two meter extrusions now for roofs, or the big Mercedes doors. Mercedes.
Oh wow. Two. So you have even, I didn't know you had a longer ex extrusion. Yes, we do. For all the vans over here, the Germans kept insisting, Jonathan, we need, we need a longer extrusion because we wanna, we wanna repair the big printer vans and because they are built in, covered up, we cannot enter, we don't wanna put the fomo, fire, electricity, you name it.
So we want a bigger extrusion to put lateral tension over the whole thing. So, uh, and then that's pretty cool because of, in the beginning of, uh, all, all the other systems, the diving was a problem. Uh, we made the [00:34:00] feed bigger, but also like, you know, already, uh, the key is pulling. He's not pushing. Right.
Pulling. So, uh, I explained it in a few, uh, seminars empty as well. That the problem is that people are pushing with the routes and with their tools. And if you push against tabs, you're gonna make 'em dive in. You're making it Doug. Right. But if you pull 'em, like ask everybody using some straps like what Keith Constantino is selling, um, straps have no problem on diving because they only pull Right.
But you can plastic feed the same thing. Make the setup so that the, the tool is pulling and not pushing or diving in. 'cause it's logical. You're only doing it on sheet metal. You're pushing and the whole thing dives in because you put a lot of strength on, on those rods or whatever you're doing in it with Right.
So, uh, but after the testing already more than four years ago. I made my first plastic straps as well to [00:35:00] start pulling on, on stuff. And you could see the difference instantly that pulling is the answer. But of course, again, collision clamps pulling, it's, it's, it's the same, it's the same thinking. Yeah. And, uh, pushing it is logical that you, if you stay on the sheet metal and you push that, you're going to dive.
It's, it's a logical conclusion. So it has to Yes. Has to dive in. So the, uh, how long has the, the, the retention been out, what, probably three years now? Uh, I think we released it in, uh, September 23. Okay. So two, a little over two years. Yes. Yes. And it guys, I will tell you that if you have not used this system, it is.
It almost looks like the Germans engineered it because it is, it's almost over-engineered. It is. My grandfather was a German. I'm guilty. Oh, there you go. See, I knew it. Um, [00:36:00] it is seriously heavy duty. Uh, it almost, it almost looks daunting to put on a car, but it works so well. Like you can, you can tell that you guys have put a lot of thought into it, the way it marries to the feet, the way it holds even.
I don't know how much that weighs. I mean, it's a pretty significant tool. It just holds on so well and moves outta your way up or down, so smooth. Um, you can pull laterally with it. You can also compress with it, right? Which is a retention. You're retentioning the panel. Um, man, it is a, it is a spectacular tool.
Um. Are you gonna be at mt e? Is it gonna be there? Yes, yes, yes. And in America, um, Anson has 'em in stock. Uh, they're on the Kiko website as well. Uh, Morgan has it, [00:37:00] uh, where you bought your glue. That's who I got the glue from. Right. Morgan, uh, has, uh, the glue, he has the glue guns, and he has the retention system as well.
Nice. So I think he's on my website page. You can find him over there as well. Uh, okay. Yeah, we'll have to, we'll find that for sure. Uh, and then I saw that you've come out with a new mini Yes. Retention system. Yes. Same, same design. Uh, just a little lighter duty, a little bit more, uh, maneuverable, flexible, easy to use.
It's a, it's a smaller system 'cause the feet are actually, uh, a big difference with, I got some, uh, first tools hanging here. One second. I'll show you. So it looks like the, I think I have the more narrow feet for the standard system. Is it the same, the big one? You see the, what the difference is? It's quite Oh, okay.
Yep. Significant difference in, in, in two. Yes. Why we did we do it? [00:38:00] Well actually, uh, we have Pex asking us if we could do a lighter version version, uh, for, uh, for only PDR use. Okay. And maybe to a kit. So the, the body line bodies are in there. The smaller feet are in there. There are two traction tab and some collision tabs in there to out of the box, be ready to, uh, to start using as a period.
And it's the 60 centimeter, the small extrusion that's also in the big kit, but important extrusions are the same. So if you have one kit. You can use it, the feet, the extrusions with the other kit they're in. Oh, okay. The only difference is in the size of the feet that's made lighter, but the, the features are all the same.
Oh, nice. And, and another thing that, that I think may go unnoticed is, and it this is on both tools. [00:39:00] The, and I don't know if you can see my point around here. Yeah. The lock on, you can also use this tool as a beam, right? So you can use it with tension independently as a beam independently, or with tension and an outward pull.
Uh, that's why we, uh, that's why we call it actually retention. I think it is Barry, that was the first one, uh, coming up with that retention name because you have the lateral tension and then at the same time, the pull up. Like, we all know it's not always possible to only with lateral tension to bring up, uh, metal.
Right. And the best way forward is first to combine it with cold glue, with a slide hammer, put tension on it, use cold glue, but get a, get that metal moving. Exactly. But sometimes the cold blue ain't strong enough because it's, it's, it's a bad, it's a bad kink or a, a strong [00:40:00] kick in that lateral tension is necessary.
Right. But then lateral tension with that lock on lifter, then you're actually doing this, you're pushing out the dent and at the same time pulling up. So you're doing, retentioning is the combination of those two. Yeah, that makes sense. And it is, guys, if you haven't moved metal in multiple directions at the same time, it's like magic.
It's, I call it like, it's almost like the third dimension of repair because we've always just gone up or down and then. Now we can go out. And then when you combine outward and upward outward, it's magical. Like just these huge smashes unfold. Uh, you know, there's still haters. You know that Bryce just shared that BMW repair he did.
And the hate was like, that's not real. You can't do this. Like, he's like, [00:41:00] but here it is. Yeah. Check it out. That's, it's crazy. Um, that, that is one of the reasons, sorry to interrupt you, but that is No, you're good. Like for these master classes, good technicians are so interested in seeing what the, some of them guys doing this like gdes, the Brazilian that's coming, uh, I had the pleasure to, uh, to be at a training and to demo lateral tension techniques in Italy at Dan's training and get, was there last year.
Uh, and the finishing and the approach of, of, of, of that guy like Bryce is unbelievable. And it helps you forward in, in ways that like John as well, uh, vi then guys go fast and have good technique, but it's all the same thing. It is creating a metal flow that, that goes in one flow to the end of the repair.
Yeah. That is actually a very important thing. And some of us might be doing it without knowing the [00:42:00] science behind it. Like that's why actually also Micro Grady developed this tool, the constant tension tool. The constant tension. Yep. And the constant tension is the answer to make sure your metal does not kick or kink or that those molecules start off fighting each other and you Right.
Because one of the biggest dangers in repair is a thousand times in and out. Yep. And, and you are doing like with a Coke can. Nonstop. And what happens to that can rubbish? Yep. Metal the same. So the better your flow to, to a repair is in one motion and keep the motion going, the better your repair will be.
The less chance on oil canning because it's the, the fallback every time that creates more problems. Right. And if you think about it, that's how damage happens is one fast, generally fast, but one fast flow in. So if you can reverse that and flow that right back out Yep. You know, [00:43:00] you get a little bit of magic.
So the retention is not your only tool. Uh, in fact you've got everything. Every time I look at the website, you've got some new stuff, uh, coming up here. So let's get this. There we go. Let's talk about, uh, some of the things you got going on here. First, actually, this, this first product, and you just mentioned it.
Um, and I know you only have a few seats left. Yeah. Uh, but you've got, uh, a class coming up. Let's, let's take a minute and talk about this. Yes. So you see the teachers, uh, it's, uh, Eson, it's a Brazilian wizard. The guys has, like Bryce, unbelievable quality repairs and unbelievable smashes. Mm-hmm. So, uh, it's, uh, it's gonna be a privilege for the guys coming, uh, to see him at work.
And it's also just like Bryce, uh, a humble man to be with. He laughs [00:44:00] it's a joker, but while he is joking, he fixes stuff in front of your eyes. That's unbelievable. So it's, it's crazy for him. It's just a daily habit. Of fixing unbelievable stuff. Then Martin suer from England, the YouTuber also, uh, a great humble guy you've seen in his repairs and, um, Martin as well.
Uh, he has, uh, his own approach. He designs the repair before he starts working on it explains how and what is doing and what the tools are and lodges approach. Yeah, and, and especially in this class, we've asked every trainer in their specialty to also bring their own tools and to make sure they explain exactly what they are doing in their situation.
Because different approaches help us learn from each other and for sure the students that have not the habit of these things. Then Barry, uh, most of, most of you guys know him for years from ing.com, Facebook. [00:45:00] He's been another trainings and of course it's Mr. Doda and also retention, and we are doing stuff together.
Um, the man has more qualities than PDR only. He thinks out of the box, completely out of the box. The guy go sit with him, have a pint with him. You, you, he'll take you to space him back of dent repair. Oh, I, I've, I've had those conversations with him. I enjoy them. He, but you, you can't let him get too excited because he gets really hard to understand.
Well, him down Butand, he's a wealth of knowledge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is. He is. And um, yeah, uh, he's bringing of course, his knowledge and he knows also, uh, he's one of them guys that are capable of, uh, making offender out of a sheet metal on a, an English wheel and all kind other kinds of techniques. Oh, wow.
He came out of car building collision and PDR. So combined, there is a wealth of, of knowledge there to have in, in these [00:46:00] trainings. Although he thinks. What am I doing between these guys? Well, Barry, you got your spot there and you deserved it, so, right. It's gonna be nice. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, John Vitz, we all know, uh, John from the shows, from the, from the, uh, games and the competitions he won.
And of course, his speed health repair, the techniques he brings. I don't need to tell you. You've been in Oh, yeah, he's, he's unreal. He, he really is. He's, I think he's my number one, uh, guest on here. I think he's made the most appearances. Okay. Uh, on the show. So yeah. We're, we're all very familiar with John.
He's a, he's, he's like, it is just another one of those guys. That's 1% of the 1%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we were really glad to have those guys and to combine it. Um. We saw, of course, what was happening in the States with these high master classes, like PDR, college and other stuff. Yeah. And [00:47:00] the demand was on, in, in Europe already for a few years.
When is, when is this gonna happen in Europe and nobody's moving on it? So, um, for sure after coming back for the last one, I was talking to Barry before the PBR college already last year about doing stuff like this. Getting, getting Garrison over here, I already requested get last year. Right. Would you come to Russ?
We'll set something up professionally in a professional location. And he said, yeah, just send me the invite. So, uh, we've cut the rope and, uh, gone for it. And John was, uh, happy to come. Martin was happy to come. So, uh. I think it's gonna be a, a great event and, uh, if it works out, it's gonna happen again.
Well, next year consult me on the dates so you don't put it on my wife's birthday so I can make the trip open, because I would've loved to have gone to this class. So you, you, you said, now this isn't a sales pitch like the class is on and it's almost full. Uh, but there are a [00:48:00] couple of seats left. So head over to the jvf tools.com, go to the products page and get this thing.
And for 2000 bucks, 2000 euros. Yeah. That's a steal. Like to, to hang out with. It's three days, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. To hang out with this crew for three days is, is worth way more than that. So all the luck, I can't wait to see the videos and all the content, uh, that comes out from there. So. Well, I know a professional videographer, uh, in the old city that I lived.
Contacted him and, um, he's coming the three days and doing all the video work. Oh, cool. So we'll have, like you all were doing at PDR College Yeah. Video and the camera on the repairs, on the screens. We'll have all the fit footage after the three days to combine it in a nice video to show people what the class is actually bringing.
Nice. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, best of luck [00:49:00] and I'm glad it's almost sold out. Uh, let's, let's sort of breeze through these kind of quick, I've got this orange mini lifter adapter for my robo. Yeah. Um, I saw it, you actually gave it to me at, uh, at PDR College, advanced Skills and Forever. And I just, it bothers me.
Like most slide hammers and lifters, they've got their sharp edges. Like it's just, it's not friendly to my sensitive dainty little fingers. And, uh, I'm like, Hey, what's this? And this is like an upgraded adapter for it. So I see you've got round, you've got the crease, uh, crease head. And then is this like t-slot adapter for Yeah, for the, the other tabs?
Yeah. Uh, it's, it's one of those simple changes that makes a, a big difference in my every day. Yeah. And uh, we did it for, uh, it works of course at [00:50:00] all the KO stuff. Yeah. Turn it on the robo or on the worth lifter or everything with the six millimeter it works on. But, um, uh, my main goal was not to have something blocking it, taking a long adapter, but also, uh, you saw our tabs, we have these tension head tabs.
Yes. And, uh, so these are right here. You grab 'em and of course they squeeze to the side of the adapter, like you can see, and then you can wiggle whatever you want. You pull off a tab and it stays in the adapter. Right. It's not flying all over the place. Yeah, exactly. It does not fly away. It just grabs the tab and stays in there.
But the sharper, the sharper adapters, they were scratching those, uh, those tabs. Oh, okay. And they were cutting the, the plastic off. So I said, well, let's, 'cause I was like, you, uh, I've been bleeding many times just by a [00:51:00] tab off and the tat cutting into your fingers. So I thought, well, let's try an easy, an easy, the, it's also a slightly bigger diameter to make sure we could do the cutouts and everything.
But since I've been using this, it's, it's a great change to, uh, to a great lifter already. Like the robo is my, still my go-to, uh, little lifter for, uh, all kinds of tabs. Well, I, I love my robo. So now I've got your, uh, tab adapter for it, and I've got Keith's, uh, the aluminum legs. Yeah. They give you adjustment there.
It's, it's like we're, it's like we're doing aftermarket work to the robo lifter and making it even, we're making it our own and making it cooler. Um, coming down here, your collision glue pellets. Yeah. Uh, I picked that up. I got that off of your buddy over here that sells for you. Um, because it was gonna cost more to ship than the glue cost.
Yeah. Uh, but this stuff is [00:52:00] fantastic and it fits with this Yes. Big dog right here. Yes. Um, this glue gun man, you ruined me. You, you, you bought it. I did. I did. You, you ruined me. It, it works so well. Um, this gun holds about six sticks of glue. Yeah. And melts it completely. Um, and then, but you know, I had to cut the sticks up and then I saw it.
You came out with the pellets. Yeah. And, uh, picked up my, whatever that is, a gallon or however many liters or whatever, however you sell that. Yeah. Um, man, that gun has changed my big glue pulling life. Well, uh, Jean, I, um, I bumped into a major problem in my eyes. I thought when we were doing, uh, retention, this is the answer.
And, uh, I wanted the bigger real estate for the feet and [00:53:00] stuff, but when I started testing, I said, oh, my. Why is this? I had to have three guns ready to fill up the feed. Yeah. Glue. And then the second feed was a, was a bigger problem. And I've been talking about these guns for, for some years with people I worked with, uh, different people I worked with and the whole back was always are technicians going to willing to buy this gun to pay this amount of money for it.
Uh, this is a German quality gun. It's built in Germany and um, the normal range of guns is around two or three grand for a gun because they are factory guns. They are specially designed to use all day long in big factories, OEM factories. So they accept sticks, like you say, cut them up, they accept the 43 millimeter sticks, the big ones, and they accept the pallets.
Right. [00:54:00] So. And because bumping into that problem of the big feet, I said, well, it's time to do it because, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, offer it to people in collision. It's gonna, of course bring me back in the same, in the same alley again, getting some hate because of the, the price of the glue and then you name it.
But actually every time I'm at the show, guys just buy it and just walk away with it. And I said, what do you think of the price? I said, Hey, Jonathan, 620 Euros. Uh, my iPhone is 15 or 1600 Euros, right? This one makes me money from the first minute I use it until I switch it off. So, uh, if you use this gun one time, I've used it on a show, put a, a tab on glue and I had to go back home, put three guns on, not anymore.
So that's why I bought it instantly. He said, when you use this, this kind of volume, you don't go back. I couldn't, [00:55:00] I could not agree more like, 'cause it was, I was to the point where getting into some of my huge repairs, I was having four and five guns loaded up and then I found a good, uh, 250 watt plugin gun from Anson that's a tech gun.
And I could run a couple of those. But this, we were using it today, we're doing the, my guy was down there, I can't move the camera, but we got a Mustang in there now. And he had big tabs and pulling tension and another big edge tab and pulling out and you just, you run out glue. Not with this. We had our dents for kids last weekend and Ants and Van was here and bigs and I pulled this gun out and I let it sit over there and I think they just about used the whole cartridge of glue playing around with it just to see how much it would put out.
The thing is awesome. Really awesome. We even, uh, the company that I'm working with had a second one. And even more professional [00:56:00] on the black ones. And those are with the cartridges that you can fill up at home preheat, and then just bring, bring in and interchange the glue if you would want to. And that's a gun.
Oh, wow. That's a gun. That's the black one also online. Uh, it's a gun with, um, the heater system on it and a compressor hose. So there is Oh, okay. So you, you, you, you plugging it into the, that's the one. Yeah. Yep. You are, you are plugging it into the, to the compressor and you're plugging it in to the electrical system.
So, uh, this thing you just push and just, it just shoots it out. It just shoots out whatever you want. But you have to have a compressor, right? Yes. Yes. And, uh. And it is not possible in a manual way, these cartridges, because as you see, it needs pressure from the back. Yeah. Pushing it in. And, uh, it has to stay clean because it's like 400 Fahrenheit.
[00:57:00] So they used air to, to squeeze out. That makes sense. And it works like a charm, but that's really cool. For now, it's only Germans buying this. No, it'll, it'll come, I'm sure. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you have to start somewhere. And, um, I know by now, since the last 15 years doing stuff with Kiko and others, if you wanna break something open and wanna bring something new into what we do, well then it takes a bit of time before people accept it.
But it is truly so if you start using it when you're doing big repairs, it's, it's, it's just a necessity to have. Yes. Doug? I, I, I couldn't agree more. It, I, I have to have it. I need it. Yes. Yeah. Well, I don't have to have it, but I really, really, really want to have it. How about that? You, you don't, you don't have to have it, but then use your three or four guns.
Eh, it's, it's, it's cool. Yeah. It, it's night and day. It, [00:58:00] it, it's unbelievable. And especially for the big feet, the big straps. It's just a no-brainer in my, in my world. For me, the missing link, I, I was because, uh, even for me, even more, I was not only doing repairs, but uh, testing prototypes of re of retention systems.
So I wanted to test those feed in all kind of different situations, uh, quarters. This, that battery also in Ireland. Can you imagine reg gluing those feet like 10 times in a row? No. With all guns? No. Started, it started aggravating me. Really? It's it, yes. So, uh, yeah. Yeah, well, your whole entire tool lineup.
Not that I would expect anything else from you is world class, top-notch stuff. You know, it's, you, you really we're playing hard. Well, I, I can tell. Uh, and you, you see it and, uh, keep doing what you're doing. 'cause it's, you know, you're, you're making our [00:59:00] life as technicians better with, with these better tools.
Yeah. So thank you. That is awesome. Uh, before I let you go, 'cause I've already taken you longer than I said I would take you. Um, do you have any, any, anything else you want to talk about? Any, any, uh, parting advice, anything like that? I, it was a pretty interesting show. I enjoyed it. Me too. I don't care if anybody does, else, does or not.
I like this one. Uh, not really, no. It's, um, uh, still exciting stuff to come 'cause uh, this is the really nice thing in what we do. Um. The only thing I, uh, what bothers me a little bit in the whole industry just a little bit is that, um, I see a lot of technicians with good ideas and I've been approached by guys with really good ideas.
And, um, because of all the copying going on, um, we are obliged, we have to take [01:00:00] patents, expensive patents to protect our tools. And even then the claims in the patents are copied. So I don't even know how it's possible, but where is the morality gone? Where is the even? Um, we need to advise guys to, if people approach me for a tool, I first say, please don't talk about it to me.
Don't. Did you take a patent to protect yourself? No. First do it, right? If your tool is a go-to tool right now and you are sure that's really good, protect it with a basic patent that will protect you already for a year, and then you can go further and do it worldwide, PCT, it, whatever you want to do, uh, but protect yourself and it works.
So, uh, how does it work? Timus started copying our tool. Some companies copied our, our features from the tool, the, the, the swiveling from left to right and all, all those things did not exist before [01:01:00] we came out with this tool, right? So, so protect your tool and then you can come to market and it works. To give you an idea, tmu, Alibaba, uh, Ali Express, all those websites, uh, Chinese companies copy pasted the tool and we got it off of there, all of it.
That's awesome. They come online, we're getting it off again. And it is, it is praised to actually Alibaba and to, uh, Ali Express. 'cause we have to commend them for it. They have an IPA, an international platform, uh, protection platform. Oh good. And what happens there is you have to file and send up all your information.
You need a lawyer, of course, your lawyer, your patent lawyer. Right. And it's possible if you talk to them to, in simple ways, confront those companies with the infringing and they take 'em offline. So new guys, new with [01:02:00] good ideas, please do not hold back because some crazy people are instantly copying everything.
Just protect it. And when the patent is granted. You'll have something in your hands that is, are we good to go? Yes. Yeah. So along those lines, and, and I don't know if I've said it, I I have to have said it on here. I know I've said it publicly before, guys. It is, I, I understand that you can go buy a knockoff tool for literally pennies on the dollar.
But what you can't do is leave people like Jonathan, like Kiko, like Charlie with Cam Auto, like Craig and Anson. You can't leave these inventors high and dry where we're a small market, right? You're not gonna sell a million of anything. Maybe a million pellets of glue, but that's about it. Not even sticks, but pellets.
If [01:03:00] we don't support the creators and the inventors. You will stifle creation and we'll start to go backwards. And we won't have new great tools. We won't have a whole new line of tools to make our work better because these, these knockoffs, these Alibabas and timus and everything, they're not dent people.
In fact, I, I laugh when I see the one that Monocle keeps showing up on my, on my feed. That's such a niche tool that, you know, they probably haven't even recouped their dollars in design yet. And these companies have 'em knocked off. Support the people that help make your life better, that design, that help drive innovation in our space.
Like I cannot tell you how important that is. Uh, and, and we're all blessed to make incredible livings doing this. Invest in yourself, make your life better, and invest in these creators that are investing in us [01:04:00] and making better tools. End of rant, but that's my soapbox. I'm a firm believer in don't buy this cheap knockoff bs you gotta support the people who support us for sure.
And, and I'm glad that you've got your patents and that you're preaching, preaching patents to further, to be able to protect yourselves. So that's awesome. Would, I would not even bring out a tool anymore if it's not connected to a patent at all. Right. 'cause it just, it's, it's unbelievable. But it's like you said just earlier, it is copied by we know who Yeah.
And why and how before you can get your own tool to market if you show it too soon. Yeah. But you know what, if you got patents and they're being, granted, you got an application, you don't need the grant patent yet. If you have that application, then, uh, when the patent is granted, if it's really new technology and it is, it is granted.
Right. All these copiers, they will have a big problem on their hand. Yes. I [01:05:00] understand tech text, but I know, I know for sure that there are still great new ideas out there. And guys get a patent. The first basic patent is two and a half, three grand. That's it to start, we are 55 grand in right now because you're talking why, and then blah, blah, blah.
But to bring it out, you need an application of the patent and you're protected. Go to a tool builder. If you can't do it yourself, make an arrangement or a deal, and you, but you are protected against the Alibabas and the Ali expresses because they, I'm gonna say it again. They respect TRO or protected things by patents.
They respect it. We are living proof that they respect it. That's great. That's so glad. I'm so glad to hear that because those knockoffs came out hot and heavy with you for sure. I mean like direct knockoffs. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. It's terrible. So [01:06:00] Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on. I can't believe it took us this long to, to get together and, and do an episode on here.
Uh, I enjoyed learning more of your story. I hadn't heard, I hadn't heard all of that before. I've heard bits and pieces, I've heard Chris's side of, of how that went down. And it's cool to like, I now I have both sides of the story and how it lined up and I can picture it all in my head. Um, thank you so much.
I'm gonna do a little, uh, outro here and then we'll, we'll stop the recording. So guys, thank you for so much for joining us and listening. Uh, this is dropping on Monday, whatever the date is, like 21, 22, maybe the 24th or whatever Monday is around there. Um. Sporting my dense slayer hat, my dense layer episode is supposed to drop on the same date.
So if you're listening to this and you haven't listened to that yet, you gotta go check it out. Um, it was really cool to get to hang out with Matt and James, uh, at Dent Slayer [01:07:00] hq. Uh, I think I might be the second longest episode. I think we went for four hours and two minutes was the final count. Uh, but I had a blast.
Uh, so head on over to the Dent Layer Show and check that out. Uh, we are still getting everything dialed in for the transition from the institute into the Institute at Dent Repair. Now, uh, if you're a student, keep an eye out. Your emails are coming, the classes are moved over, we're working on it. Go follow us on social at Dent Repair now across the board.
And, uh, that's it. So guys, thank you so much, Jonathan. Again, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And I'll see you in, uh, just a. Really a couple of months. We'll be at MTE before we know it. Thanks. Alright, thank you guys.
